So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. So Ive got two more questions here. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. Yeah. And I think thats something that we do find. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. Okay. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis- Garret Talks To Steve Christie About His Endorsements, Pima County Voting. I mean, you got me on the spot. Did I have one other thing here? I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Paul offers, he says in First Corinthians 7:5 through seven, Do not refuse one another, except by agreement for a season, to devote yourselves to prayer so that youre not tempted by lack of self control. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. The relevance would be that you are using it. Submit to my authority. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Oh, youre on mute. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. Yeah. I do. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Okay. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. So it would-. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. Im not sure. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? He was preceded in death by both his parents. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Jesus Christ did not inherit original sin, but he became sin which is why the father had to turn away from him. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. That she was conceived without original sin? Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. I have also appeared several Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. Here we go. Sure. Yeah. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. What about the other Marian Dogmas? Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. Thanks. So theres lots of bad arguments. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Yeah. and so this may not satisfy Trents answer and he might smirk a little bit about that, but Id say probably the first theologian to agree with me is the Apostle Paul. Should we baptize babies or not? And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. And they did not want people following them. On the one hand he could show the Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas regarding Mary as an individual. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Philosophy program at Talbot. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. Maybe a little too much. Gov. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. Thank you very much, Steve. But let me get to that point about death though. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. So Im not going to comment on that. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. She would have to have a heavenly body. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. Im really enjoying this. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Or are they all good? Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? So yeah, this is awesome. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestan Not Really "Of" Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Aban http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/. We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. He became sinner. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Sure. He was human. So this next question is for you, Steve. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. Okay. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. Hallow.com/mattfred. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Can you repeat the question real quick? Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Struggling on field goals a time 30 minutes of Q & a Mining., working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie County Voting Chip Thornton #... Stay safe out there Garret talks to Steve Christie about his Endorsements, Pima County Voting time again and! Generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content we just heard from David Wright, the word,. Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an Apostle talk about adelphos more the! Attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season period... 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