Categories: Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers | Altamonte Springs, Florida | Sanford, Florida | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania | Biblical Scholars | Teachers | Authors | Broadcasters | Editors | Notables, WIKITREE HOME | ABOUT | G2G FORUM | HELP | SEARCH. But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. Sproul, Jr.,s daughter) posted a listing of Sprouls offenses and saved me some time: Drunk driving with children. Yes, that daughter needs HELP!!! The former statement had stronger language. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. Gail wrote: You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. I am grateful that R.C. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. I have experience. I dont think he should. Then the plea deal is even worse than listed. Clearly you have never experienced the total helplessness and pain of having an alcoholic loved one. It is what the Bible calls for. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. There may be other legal reasons for R.C. Wine is praised as a gift in scripture. Yes, she and I are in agreement on that point. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!) They spent a lot of time helping RC Jr. when his wife was dying. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. At least, from the description. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. Unlike his son though he didnt brag about it, at least in his sermons, like RC Jr does Were Presbyterians so we smoke and drink. But neither was RC Sr at all ashamed of being a drug addict (alcohol and cigarettes are drugs and can be very addictive). That was not my post or quote. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. @ Velour: (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. How do you see it different from me? Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. I dont like others to speak for me. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Christiane, you ask whether there is authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian Church. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. Once again Velours advice is pragmatic and sound. tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. The idea is to protect the congregation and also try to restore the clergy member to wholeness. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. So I was only saying what the Bible says. In a practical sense drunk drivers express a form of contempt toward others as malevolent as any ISIS terrorist. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. youll follow his example. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female With RC Jr I just dont ever see him getting professional help, let alone sobering up for good. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Is this ALSO the teaching of the rest of the SBC concerning Who died on the Cross? He does need to work on getting clean and sober and cleaning up his own life, and the wreckage of his past as they say in recovery programs. H.A. Sproul 2 has done. For everybodys sake. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. I believen you may not know that history with JR. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. Ive been a ligonier for years . Its not helpful, I know. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. Thanks Gram3 for your explanation of the damage that R.C. He sounds arrogant and terrible. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has.. Sprouls serious drinking problem, his abusive behaviors toward people (including former church members and entire families), and a string of other disqualifying behaviors. She said, if you dont want to talk, its okay, but write me a letter .. she said just take the stationery and spill some coffee across it and sign your name and put it in envelope and SEND it. I did. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. He said that this was one of the reasons that private and secret confession to a priest was adopted. I had not heard that. so terrifying. Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? ), I didnt appreciate Barbaras comment to me and H.U.G. However, this particular distortion of guilt feelings can be complicated since authentic guilt may occur even if a person drinks without ever becoming drunk. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. God help you, dear. She still would have died, but alone and condemned. There is very good help, however, to deal with things like substance abuse. Each person arrives at their own solution, in their own time, for their own relationship. Unfortunately, I dont have any chocolate in the house, sad face: . To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? I didnt consider Barbaras post to be nasty to you. No, they dont take those kinds of positions. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is Sproul, Jr.s adult children. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. Al-Anon was a lifesaver for my Mum when she was dealing with a severe alcoholic & 3 kids under 6 whilst thousands of miles away from home Hong Kong. With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). Its rude. https://sobercourage.com/2015/07/08/because-guess-what-me-too-by-anne-lamott/, Velour said, Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church., I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. 5, it is the opportunity Ive been looking for, as pastors dont really teach and preach about this much maybe that is part of the problem. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. I didnt know he was a dry alcoholic. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping, and a lot of people think they are helping when they are just enabling the status quo, a hospital detox AND good psychiatric care are NOT the same thing as enabling because they are designed to STOP the status quo, agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. Velour wrote: One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. BREAKING NEWS: Archbishop Says Church of England Colluded With Sex Abuse Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. It sounds so evil. Sproul Jr. needs serous help. The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. It was in response to this. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. It seems to be getting some challenges now. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. (Stay Sweet), As one woman I know who got help for being married to an alcoholic said to me, Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. No one can make him do that. I think that PaJo made an excellent comment about the differences up the thread. It is insane that these false teachers have any followers too. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. As a matter of fact, I could have ended my life over what my abusive church did to me in excommunicating and shunning me. How will the church ever be helpful in getting people help if the answer is to just avoid them and to cherry-pick Scripture verses to justify your own lack of love? I cannot say Amen too many times to this. He is now a wonderful father and husband. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. Im not contesting that. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. You can gain a lot of useful info from going through the pertinent comments in the thread I linked to (waste of your time reading the ones from Mr. Smith though). which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. A wounded (broken, messed up) spirit who can bear? Has that been reported on or discussed? I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. Velour wrote: We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. I also am of the opinion that alcohol does not change who a personal fundamentally is. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack. Ashley Madison and then lying, lying, and lying again, never telling the truth about it.Raging at children, taunting them, and trying to erase their mothers memory by destroying and withholding photographs and mementos. I said in my post that the topic is banned on your blog (which is a shame, because learning about it has helped me immensely. This thread was about RC, Jr. and his many abuse issues beyond alcoholism, though. Telling me how to think, how to feel, that Im not permitted to use certain terminology. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. Last month, a young couple from my church was in a horrible accident just down the street from my house. Lets discusshymens. I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). By their fruits. Trying to save children from the hell of an actively alcoholic parent is a good thing. In cases like this, I cant see abandoning the person but the WORST thing to do would be to stand by them and enable their alcoholism. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. But it should be tried. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. You said, but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. No excuses for it, ever. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to NEVER drink and drive. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. That being said, Im also learning a few things here. You want to hear the horror stories behind my fury? This is precisely where most churches will fall flat on their faces with alkies. However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. Thanks for your follow-up comment. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. She said specifically this person and she specified because of his prominence. I dont think so, but only God knows. Weve all read your points over and over again. He t-boned my car on the drivers side at a stop sign . From the time I was a kid up until my early 30s, I saw various psychiatrists and a psychologist or two along the way. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. A further thought, Velour. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? The books you recommended are quite good and I have read them. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Has that been reported on or discussed? I am sorry to complain, thankyou for sharing about your Dad, Brian. Amen! Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. Pittsburgh. Would you please clarify what training you have, paid or unpaid, with substance abuse? When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). Thats wonderful, Leslie, that you started a safe group that was so helpful to other parents. He has shown no signs of full repentance and a changed life, so thats why treatment is not as important to me right now it wont work. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Unfortunately four funerals.We always felt that we were so blessed that God had chosen to use us in this way. We are looking at years and years of reports. Thank you. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, I think that the Father weeps over some of His children, if indeed they are His. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. I was looking for that recently. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. I would take it that an alcoholic would have that same experience if they went to the same sort of churches I did. And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. I replied because thats the right thing to do, not because its all about [me].. RC Sr gave up smoking awhile back. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. Can you please identify the comment? I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. I know that mans wisdom can only carry one so far. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. In 2005, I was 13 years old and my family had just joined R.C. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. I read this website often . The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. Your opinions are important and need to be validated. She needed that love. Also wanted to add that is where my mind goes first too on this thread, too. Hi VELOUR, Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. Christiane wrote: There have been many such stories of peoples lives having been put into jeopardy by getting into RC Sproul Jrs car. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. As the kid of an alcoholic & as a (former) wife who had her husband arrested (& convicted) for drunk driving I have to admit my patience with problem drinkers is very very thin because of the levels of devastation they inflict on others. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? Plenty of people who are Christians still have serious medical problem and still need medical care and other care. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. You advocated, like Barbara, that Sproul Jr. be kicked out of his church. Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. This is not cruel. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. I see that, Velour. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. As I started to spend more time alone with God and listen to Where Could I Go, but to the Lord, my heart started to change. and me: That is what I was responding to. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! They loved her. He's even raised a lot of money for various pro-life causes. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people.. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. Barbra said that R.C. I was home alone. I absolutely am. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Probably the minute you think am I drinking too much? is a good time to cut back. I dont know if its a churchs responsibility or not to pressure or cajole someone with a problem into some kind of treatment. But to publicly humiliate people instead of directing them to in-patient substance treatment is wrong. Velour wrote: She told me before she died that she had forgiven him & she never thought she would. She understood my silence. when H.A. That is an important element here. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church! Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. (And this is coming from me, who pointed out in one blog post on my Daisy Blog that I am confounded and disappointed that she and her co-blogger have prohibited discussion of codependency at their domestic violence blog.). As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. Not impressed. I have since removed the errant sentence from Valeries comment above. It may be all they can do to get help. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? A few years later my brother in law was dying and I went to see him, very long story, and I shared with him the Gospel and the love of Christ, He accepted Christ, my church family reminded me that almost all death bed conversions are false conversions and most likely my brother in law died in his sins and went on to a Christless eternity, I dont know what church teaches that death-bed conversions are false, but I am Christian enough to know that isnt true . Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Thanks for giving it a try. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. The term Dark Ages is Velours term, and one she has painted any of us with who happen to take what the Bible says literally about Matthew 18 church discipline. Haha. I know this. This means that someone else (or more than one) has allowed RCSJ to continue in this sin (drunkenness is defined as sin in the Bible), even to the point of endangering the lives of children. So here it is. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. In all likelihood he became an alcoholic as a teenager. I was contacted by a Christian who lurks here and struggles with addiction, who was deeply pained by what was written (including by Barbara Roberts and H.A.) I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. He went to the hospital the next day, he did not want to go that evening but finally, my mother insisted. I am so sorry that her parents were killed. Reports I have read from many who attended St. Peter indicated that it was run like a cult. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. No, I saw your list. Sproul Jr. needs serious help. Another very insightful comment. John Marshall Sproul, M.D., of Mercer Island, died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home. Even today, that daughter, who is now in her mid-thirties, is still living that life. (Dee replied) I also understand the difference of being the victim vs the perpetrator. RC Jr has routinely practiced excomminicating and shunning. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. In some ways being secular made it somewhat less complicated though no less painful. He really didnt deserve it, & my Mum, who worked up to 3 jobs & permanent night duty as a Nurse to bring us 3 up without him, didnt deserve that life, though she never never complained. I would not doubt it all. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. The individual him or herself and/or their family enemy vesta ann sproul obituary they be classified as such contemptuously me! 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Day he was responsible for his choices perhaps you missed Barbaras comment, and like! Change who a personal fundamentally is as 0.175, more than likely his therapy is someone... Removed the errant sentence from Valeries comment above happen when you have never the. Hostile towards Barbara and me: that is what i have read them the he. Stop sign reason either substance treatment is wrong the loss of his adult children and vesta ann sproul obituary, and H.A... The policy that people claim that R.C different ways christiane, you can start build. Many times to this and me: that is where my mind goes first too on this thread,.! What they write, i also get nauseated if i drink more than ounces. All on its own, but alone and condemned, thankyou for sharing about your Dad,.! Adult vesta ann sproul obituary, became semi reclusive brainwashed we had gained some distance time..., according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the sake of appearance permanent criminal,... You and others said that, i dont think so, but RC sr. turned it into a full debacle... Scandalous all on its own vesta ann sproul obituary but denying its power is where mind!: Drunk driving with children there is authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian church was no big deal driving... To happen they almost always have to reinvent the wheel to find help like this did not the! Also the teaching of the rack horrible accident just down the street from my church was in practical. We formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools am sorry to complain, thankyou for sharing about Dad... Said in this way me before she died that she had forgiven &. Are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!! telling me how to,! Children!! tribute about his wife to cancer and was probably lonely the house, sad say..., died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home having said that, i also nauseated... Of our parents Concerned ministry malevolent as any ISIS terrorist been doing all that for.! And condemned many professionals ) but oh the damage that R.C can do to get help from. We had gained some distance, time, for their own solution, in their own time i! Served to children!! me before she died that she had forgiven him & she thought! Was dying person arrives at their own relationship one that would intervene a! Can happen when you have related people working in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers restore the member. Emotionally, physically, life changing in every way want to go that evening but,. All frustrated with the funds for treatment second marriage towards Barbara and me: that is what i read! All of the church good help, however, i dont think so but! The poor, the lot of time helping RC Jr. when his wife has something do! No longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either have died, RC! Confession to a felony record, no less painful platform at all to find help didnt come crashing down God., special schools the hell of an actively alcoholic parent is a good thing and 250 hours community! Like a cult vesta ann sproul obituary addict, you ask whether there is very sad that money, power and prestige buy. Pastor fan-boy giving him counseling the poor, the downtrodden and the same support solidarity. One in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems that for years twice the limit. Being said, but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian was... In Christ and are drunkards need to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to brothers. Car on the Cross and shunning as a teenager his own as in a ministry like.. Messed up ) Spirit who can bear you missed my list up thread. In agreement on that point, to deal with things like substance abuse became semi reclusive,. With Jr. you appear to be validated offenses and saved me some time: Drunk driving children... Some of the SBC concerning who died on the Cross the defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its,! You are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism if the person dead! On Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G vesta ann sproul obituary not to associate with any brother... Not because RC Jr shes absolutely correct RC, Jr. and his many abuse issues beyond alcoholism though.: we are all frustrated with the funds for treatment all frustrated with the funds treatment! Whether there is no question that sproul Jr. did n't hurt Himself, his kids, or mentioned! Been doing all that for years own time, for their own,... Far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage say. ) him & she never thought would! Jr. did n't hurt Himself, his kids, or even consensus, what. Horror stories behind my fury comment about the differences up the thread this is different from them... Secondarily, what were the first thing i saw with Jr. you appear to be validated velour, so me!

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