On his first date, with a girl in his class, Henry gave her an ultimatum to either have sex with him, or else. This girl remains unknown, most likely carried off by the Virginia mountain critters. Henry Lee Lucas was a drifter who roamed the United States in the 1960s and '70s. The 74-year-old woman was pronounced dead at the scene. 1 1.The Insane True Story of Henry Lee Lucas, The Confession Killer; 2 2.Henry Lee Lucas: 5 things to know about the serial killer Corrections1; 3 3.13 Disturbing Facts About Serial Killer Henry Lee Lucas Ranker; 4 4.Henry Lee Lucas: 5 Horrifying And Bizarre Facts About The Sicko ; 5 5.Henry Lee Lucas Wikipedia; 6 6.why did henry lee This email will be used to sign into all New York sites. Do you think he eventually came to the understanding that he misled everyone? WebHenry Lee Lucas was a murderer born in 1936 in Virginia. Would you believe someone if they confessed to over 600 murders? Has killed over 350 according to the Texas-based Lucas task force who investigated him. It was in the wee hours and in the winter of 1949 when the crippled man pushed open the screen door with his broken broomstick. As reported by Medium, it was eventually revealed that a majority of Henry Lee Lucas' confessions were blatantly false. He even argued with the police when they doubted his claims. He was bullied and sobbed while running back home. Its an irony on that level just because we end up doing the wrong thing, it doesnt mean we meant to do it in the first place. Soon afterward, Lucas was arrested in Texas in 1983. Netflix is back with its true-crime content, this time taking on the very curious case of convicted murderer Henry Lee Lucas in the docuseries The Confession Killer. The five-episode series The Confession Killer is available now on Netflix. He claimed to hear his mothers voice talking to him, a result of his schizoid delusions. [22][23], The bulk of the Lucas Report was devoted to a detailed timeline of Lucas' claimed murders. Kenner: That just goes to show what weve been saying. Scotts retrial was delayed for several years because of his health problems. I know it is a weird question but what do you think? WebFor his conviction in the ten other murders, Lucas was issued six life sentences and 210 additional years for the remaining four. Obviously, he was also prepped for them and he got too much information. About five years after the killings, serial killer Henry Lee Lucas told a Williamson County officer that he killed Salazar and Key. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Henry Lee Lucas confessed to over 600 murders, although only 3 were confirmed, including the killing of his own mother. Although they eventually separated and were arrested for different crimes, they both confessed to killing nearly 100 people while they were together. And if Lucas is to be believed, they killed more than 600 people together an astounding claim. After their arrests, police were eager to hear them confess to countless murders which helped them close a number of unsolved cases. Sources are conflicted about when he was released but it's believed he served either ten or eleven years for her murder, per Digital Spy. Aside from his exploits with Lucas, he is perhaps best known for killing Adam Walsh, the son of America's Most Wanted host John Walsh. Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, killed 49. Getty ImagesOttis Toole in custody in front of a police station in Jacksonville, Florida. First, it was, wait Beckys alive? But almost immediately, Lucas began confessing to murders. [20] In early 2015, over 35 years later, "Caledonia Jane Doe" was identified through a DNA match as Tammy Alexander. Bush really was getting ready to run for President in 1998. Pretty quickly, I found 10 or 12 more cases where the same thing had happened. Combat veteran operated. Taki had worked on it for a year and a half, then we worked on it for about a year and half, then Netflix came in and we spent another two years. Henry Lee Lucas was born in a one-room log cabin in Blacksburg, Virginia. Although Henry Lee Lucas is a well-known serial killer, there were actually two "confession killers." It Was All a Lie", "Netflix's "Confession Killer" un-solves murders as a ruthless true crime story in reverse", "Sheriff's wife among 4 dead in shooting", Biography of Henry Lee Lucas at Courtroom Television Network's, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Lee_Lucas&oldid=1136966980, American people who died in prison custody, People with antisocial personality disorder, Recipients of American gubernatorial clemency, Serial killers who died in prison custody, Short description is different from Wikidata, Articles with dead external links from April 2022, Articles with permanently dead external links, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, 3 confirmed, 8 disputed, falsely claimed over 250, This page was last edited on 2 February 2023, at 02:17. All That's Interesting reports the men bonded over a similarly difficult childhood. Unfortunately, it was later revealed that Lucas and Toole were not telling the truth about all of these crimes they supposedly committed. He was what Sheriff [Jim] Boutwell needed. Details You Didn't Know About Henry Lee Lucas, Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole met in 1976, a majority of Henry Lee Lucas' confessions were blatantly false. WebI've often gotten a Michael Mann vibe from the way Nolan shoots urban environments (and frankly his style in general), and wouldn't be surprised if Mann was an inspiration to him. In a new film the pop star co-wrote with director Trey Edward Shults. Get the best viral stories straight into your inbox! Georgetown, Texas. Henry Lee Lucas' father lost both of his legs in an accident while he was working for the railroad. Stories about Henry Lee Lucas tell how unusually forthcoming he was with authorities: he claimed to have killed over 3,000 people, and seemed eager to take responsibility for unsolved murders. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Henry pleaded with the prison psychiatrist to let him remain a convict and even threatened to kill again as soon as they released him. But he was batshit crazy and covered in blood half the time! After decapitating the young boy with a machete, Toole drove around with the head in his car for so long that he forgot it was there. Webnative american legend dog with different colored eyes. Meanwhile, Toole was separately imprisoned in Florida in 1984 for burning a 64-year-old man alive. Although the task force officially "cleared" 213 previously unsolved murders, the task force, which was headed by former Sheriff Jim Boutwell, faced harsh criticism for their methods and their willingness to believe Lucas' often implausible confessions. He died behind bars in 2001 of congestive heart failure. But there was another murder case where Ill kiss your butt if he didnt lead us right to the deer stand where the murder took place. Therefore, his emotions were repressed until they essentially exploded. She was known as Orange Socks because that was the only item of clothing found on her mutilated corpse. Sadly, well never know. A petition collected more than 200,000 signatures to change the film's rating [88] and a version with less profanity was finally given a PG-13 rating. Lucas later denied involvement, but the consensus is that he did murder Powell and Rich. Henrys father tried his best to imagine himself in a happier place, but soon Viola took away his booze, and began planning his escape. Drake, Usher, and Burna Boy to Headline J. Coles Dreamville Festival. He claimed to have committed his first murder in 1951, when he said he strangled 17-year-old Laura Burnsley after she refused his sexual advances. It was very painful for her. When we mentioned this to Bob Prince he said, I only wish Boutwell were here to defend himself today. And Im thinking, Yeah, but you know theres absolute proof that Lucas didnt do them. In a way, Boutwell got to say what he needed to say. She goes, Its really hard to do, but you cant convict because you have a feeling. He really did commute Henry Lee Lucas' death sentence to life imprisonment. Press J to jump to the feed. As if that werent bad enough, the serial killer couple also dabbled in cannibalism. Walsh was perhaps one of the most well-known victims killed by Toole or Lucas since his murder would result in new child protection laws and his father getting into television and criminal justice. Unbelievable!Oldham: Oh my God, it was amazing. They preyed upon anyone they could find including hitchhikers, sex workers, and migrants. The New York Times reports Bush referred to irregularities in Lucas' confession, including "strong evidence" that Lucas was in another state when one of his victims was killed. Jenna Ortega Will Dance, Dance, Dance With the Weeknd. [14], In November 1983, Lucas was transferred to a jail in Williamson County, Texas. He was eventually pardoned from death row and sentenced to life imprisonment. The cadmium poisoning being from the chicken droppings, which he may have been eaten as a child. You\'ll receive the next newsletter in your inbox. WebHenry Lee Lucas spent his adolescence entering and exiting reformatories and prison. Meanwhile, Henry Lee Lucas readily confessed to more than 600 murders. From there, I went wow, maybe, there is the chance to tell a new chapter of this story. It was just, like I say, as though I left my body. We Asked, You Answered: What Would You Pick For Your Last Meal On Death Row? They might smell like death--organic smells are hard to remove from clothing unless they have discarded the clothing or laundered them. [14] Believing Lucas and the 15-year-old Powell were a married couple, the minister found Lucas a job as a roofer while allowing the couple to stay in a small apartment on the commune where they even attended church services. Webwhy did erik palladino leave er; 55 and over communities in lehigh valley pa; mrs miniver bloopers; enemy of the state definition; write the negation of the statement all ravens fly; arctic circle shake flavors; hyundai capital america secure messaging notification; mirror lakes hoa; northumbria police news ashington; deepglow skate infect counters When he attempted to pick her up, he realized he "had a knife in [his] hand and she had been cut." According to some reports, Lucas and Toole bragged about cannibalizing some of their victims. Covering Rammsteins Du Hast in Berlin. Powell was said to be in a romantic relationship with Lucas. Kenner hopes justice will win in the end. Of more than 3,000 murder cases in which he was a suspect, police believed more than 200 cases were committed by him. The Magical Last Hours of the Flix Gonzlez-Torres Show. But once he learned that Lucas was taking cops on guided tours of their murder sites, Toole soon began backing up his former lovers claims. Her name came up many times in conversations with Lucas, as he claimed she was the only girl he ever loved. And on some level it becomes a cover-up, but I dont think it started out that way. Netflix's latest true-crime documentary series, The Confession Killer, takes a look at the murder claims of Henry Lee Lucas, who confessed to killing over 600 women around the country between 1975 and 1983. Both Lucas and Toole had been raised by abusive mothers who had forced their sons to dress like girls. At 50, his mother, Viola Lucas, still worked as the towns cheapest prostitute. He needed to find the serial killer. Dr. William Walsh said he believes Lucas As reported by D Magazine, the abuse Henry Lee Lucas suffered as a child included several serious head injuries. Richard Ramirez had really bad breath from drugs rotting out his teeth. Given Lucass habit of lying, its impossible to know what his real body count was. Love often finds you in the unlikeliest of places and that can include in the midst of a decades-long, zombie-creating global pandemic. For years, we have been thetop moviegoers even though the films we watch rarely reflect our communities. At a certain point, he turned. The examples just stand out to me more. The mug shots of Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole, taken in the early 1980s. Dont remember you saying please to none of them animals or them children you put your dirty little pecker into neither.. He confessed to over 100 murders, though it was later believed he, too, lied about many of the crimes, according to Biography. In the worst-case scenario, the real killers behind some of the fake confessions might even still be out there. A native of Blacksburg, Virginia, Henry Lee Lucas was one of nine children. As for Ottis Toole, he was far more reluctant to talk about his crimes at first. He was assaulted by almost every person he thought he could trust. I made the police look stupid, Lucas later boasted. Henry had his first sexual experience when he was 14-years-old, but not with a girl, but rather on small animals, such as squirrels and rabbits. The same goes for Ottis Toole. In the book Trust Me, by true crime author Ryan Green, there is an entertaining dialogue between mother, son, and sons future wife. And that was so fascinating. For part of his murder spree, Lucas was in cohorts with another famous American serial killer: Ottis Toole. Hundreds of cases were closed based on his confessions. All I remember was slapping her alongside the neck, Lucas would later tell the police. As the confession was the only evidence of Lucas' involvement in the woman's death Bush said he had "a special obligation to make sure the State of Texas never executes a person for a crime they may not have committed.". His mother dressed him up as a girl, his older sister raped him before he was 10 years old, and his father prostituted him to a neighbor when he was only five. But the mystery behind their murder spree had just begun. After reading about Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole, take a look at serial killer Edmund Kemper, whose story is almost too disturbing to be real. He went into a rage and stabbedthe 74-year-old woman in the neck, causing a fatal heart attack as she bled outon the kitchen floor of their home. This password will be used to sign into all, Okay, TikTok, You Can Calm Down About Aubrey Plaza at the SAG Awards Now, Shakira Takes Some Pointers From Taylor Swift. Popsugar. He would state himself he only killed his mother, Henry Lee Lucas claimed to be one of the most notorious serial killers in the United States. He exploited the cover of air raids and wartime blackouts to assault and rape dozens of women, several of whom he killed. According to some sources, she may have even helped Lucas and Toole lure in victims; people would approach Lucas'scar, thinking the young girl was in trouble. Henry Lee Lucas is escorted to his capital murder trial by the police. But the real number of murders may never be known. After his arrest, hundreds of open homicide cases were linked to him. He was God in the country. Even other famous killers have this: Lee Harvey Oswald, John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray. Investigators saw a possible connection in two missing women, one of whom was Becky Powell, Toole's niece. Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole may not have killed hundreds. The task force also allowed Lucas access to case files, including crime scene photos. Lucas later said that he liked having someone look up to him so he ran off with her and left Toole alone. [21], Journalist Hugh Aynesworth and others investigated the veracity of Lucas' claims for articles that appeared in The Dallas Times Herald. If we were to take a conservative estimate, 70 to 100 cases are still crediting Lucas for the crime, whether formally or informally. The constant sights and sounds of his mothers flesh being pounded surely distorted any view of consensual sex that Henry may have once had. He took credit for hundreds of murders but later recanted. Viola was determined to kill the little slut trying to snatch away her youngest child. Web ; nyexaminerad lnespecialist ln; kallades en flygare webbkryss; lud zbunjen normalan 9; bands with moon in the name [32] However, he remained publicized as America's most prolific serial killer, despite denials such as flatly stating, "I am not a serial killer" in a letter to author Shellady. This week I will be analyzing the sixth most well-known serial killer: Henry Lee Lucas. 236. The police would often drive him out to the scene of the crime and even let him get fast food on the way. [8][9], On June 10, 1954, Lucas was convicted on over a dozen counts of burglary in and around Richmond, Virginia, and was sentenced to four years in prison. Within 24 hours he would kill two women just miles from the prison walls. I forget the name of the cop; I think it was Joe and he lived in Florida. Together, they committed some of the most twisted murders in u.s. I spoke to Robby about it and we saw that it had the potential to be way more than just a normal true-crime story. While the Rangers defended their work, a follow-up investigation by the Attorney General of Texas concluded Lucas was a fabulist who had falsely confessed. Toole insisted that he was the young boys murderer. Finden Sie perfekte Stock They assumed he was guilty. Multiple times he tried, unsuccessfully, to take his own life, but they caught each time during the act. He began to get involved in fights and small robberies. Most of her offspring moved as far away as possible once they left her nest. [4][5][6][3][7] Eventually, Lucas' schoolteachers complained about the cross-dressing, and a court order put an end to it. For Lucas and Toole, killing was just a way for the young couple to bond. I think theres a desire to move on and not question, which is I think a mistake. Kenner: I think its a mistake that they didnt catch but, at the same time, when they were presented by information from [journalist] Hugh Aynesworth, they werent ready to listen to it. Psychoanalyst Alice Miller suggests Henry Lee Lucas' relationship with his mother was also a contributing factor. Henry found himself a woman to pretend to be Becky. Lucas's confession was deemed unreliable, and he recanted it a few years later. As reported by Medium, Lucas later confessed to killing hundreds of people in multiple states. Its not that were out to say Henry didnt kill people. Henry Lee Lucas was a sickly boy growing up. You found so many people who were involved in the Henry Lee Lucas cases: Rangers, lawyers, the journalists, the families, the spiritual advisor, and retired homicide detective Linda Erwin.Kenner: That was an interesting story, because Taki called her a few times and she just hung up. Suddenly, what had been a he-said-she-said little dance had the potential to be answered. In the 1970s, this serial killer couple embarked on a horrific murder spree across the United States. Netflixs five-part docuseries The Confession Killer compellingly tells the story of how Lucas was both a serial killer and a serial liar, and, more importantly, explores law enforcements fixation with closing cases and the toll it takes on the families of the victims. Viola dragged her smelly boy down to the local creek, stripped him, and held his head underwater. How could this have happened? Sure, serial killers ~killed~ people, but what did they actually do? Unfortunately, Henrys future wife, although repulsive, runs out, unable to deal with the mother issues. When he was just 14 years old, Toole killed a person for the very first time. Southie658 3 yr. ago. In 1984, Henry Lee Lucas confessed to Thorntons murder. Henry Lee Lucas was ultimately arrested for the unlawful possession of a firearm. They quickly became lovers, jumpstarting a relationship that was based on mutual attraction and a mutual desire to kill. Wed love to get that DNA evidence. Out of prison, the homeless and constantly drunk Lucas would eat at a local Florida soup kitchen. For Aimee Carreros character Patti in the Ama, For Sheryl Lee Ralph, playing educator Barbara Howard on the hit series Abbott Elementary came pretty naturally. However, physical evidence only linked Henry Lee Lucas to two murders, and he later admitted his confessions were a hoax. He was sentenced to serve 20 to 40 years at Jackson State Penitentiary in Michigan, but after two botched suicide attempts, he was sent to a psychiatric facility. [3] These arguments escalated until January 11, 1960, when, according to Lucas, she struck him over the head with a broom, at which point he stabbed her in the neck. Remember how I liked to pour some blood out of them? he asked Lucas. As reported by All That's Interesting, Lucas' lover, Ottis Toole, confessed to traveling throughout the United States with Lucas and helping him choose and kill his victims. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Parker Posey stars in this update of Chekhov, swapping familiar New York intelligentsia types for the Russian bourgeoisie. No matter the final tally, as this list shows, Henry Lee Lucasleftbehind a grim legacy. Aint no way he couldve guessed that, and I damn sure didnt tell him., Lucas himself admitted to exaggerating and making up stories. Information and news about serial killers. Between the ages of five and 10, Henry was stabbed in the eye, struck in the back of the head with a two-by-four, and suffered another blow to the face. Lucas was convicted of murdering his mother in 1960 and two others in 1983. Lucas' participation in the investigation would serve to boost his credibility in later confessions to other crimes. They may smell of blood or sex or chemical agents depending on how they handle their victims' bodies, and general lifestyle. On numerous occasions, he was actually transported to crime scenes to discuss the murders with local authorities. This is why for us this is such an amazing story. They think I'm stupid, but before all this is over, everyone will know who's really stupid. An enjoyably indulgent but paper-thin adaptation shrinks Taylor Jenkins Reids best-selling novel into a claustrophobic love triangle. Kenner: And the Rangers absolutely added credibility to these small-town police forces that came in. Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole traveled across 26 states in the 1970s, killing wherever they went. He explained, in detail, how he killed each woman, where, and he even drew detailed sketches of what each woman looked like. Lucas was soon arrested in Ohio on the outstanding Michigan warrant. To keep the confessions flowing, the task force gave Lucas the star treatment, supplying him with all the cigarettes and strawberry milkshakes he wanted, and letting him traverse the jail without handcuffs. How viewers can change the meaning of a great artists work. Though he was convicted of 11 murders, some have surmised he was responsible foras a few as three. In 2019, Netflix released a five-part serialized documentary The Confession Killer focusing on the far-reaching consequences of the investigation.[39]. Henry didnt mind killing the girl, although thats not where his satisfaction came from, but in having sex with her still warm corpse in the backseat of his car. This is not a series about an innocent man. But within the folds of their falsehoods lie some terrible truths. [14][33], Some continue to believe, nonetheless, that Lucas was responsible for a massive number of killings. He first went to prison in 1960 for murdering his mother, a crime for which he served 10 years before being released on parole. BENTON, La. Lucas posed that question to the judge during an arraignment for the murder of an elderly woman, Kate Rich, whom he and his 15-year-old girlfriend were hired to care for. Sam Richardson Is Happy That the Kids Are Finding. When word got around to Henrys tyrannical mother about his marriage to his prison pen pal, a repulsive woman named Stella, she hopped the first bus to Michigan. She was known as Orange Socks because that was the only item of clothing found on her mutilated corpse. The Oregon native's net worth is estimated to be around $700,000, according to multiple outlets, including CheatSheet and The Sun. ", "The Twisted Life of Serial Killer Ottis Elwood Toole", "Detectives turn to New Bethany Home for Girls in search of leads in woman's 1981 death", "Henry Lee Lucas able to confuse authorities and then beat death", "Drifter's confession to Williamson murder failed to hold up", "USA: The death penalty in Texas: lethal injustice", Institute for Advanced Technology in the Humanities, "Eternity's gate slowly closing at Peckerwood Hill", "USA: Fatal flaws: Innocence and the death penalty in the USA", "Texas Ranger a reluctant confidant as inmate confesses to 150 murders", "Interview With MAX WOMACK Texas Ranger, Retired", "He Confessed to Murdering 600 Women. Kenner: I think whats so interesting is Taki went back and saw these cases that were viewed in isolation. Everyone had a different agenda and a different process. Family and friends of the victims believed they had closure only to discover years later that the real killer may never have been brought to justice. He WebHenry Lee Lucas victims Category page. His pleas went unheeded, and on August 22, 1970, Henry Lee Lucas was a free man. Henry Lee Lucas derived his pleasure from sexual intercourse (rape) and not the killing, which is unlike his crime partner Ottis Toole, who preferred the act of killing over anything else. Its better to let the guilty man go than to convict an innocent man. She was great. Both father and son got front row seats as Viola sexually serviced her clients. The report compared his claims to reliable, verifiable sources for his whereabouts; the results often contradicted his confessions, thus casting doubt on his participation in most of the crimes he had confessed to. 721 Smith Rd. When he was just 10, he lost an eye because his mother ignored an infection for too long. In the mid-1980s, Henry Lee Lucas was a star at least in the context of Americas exploding fascination with serial killers. And as Lucas would later admit, confessing to crimes won him extra privileges. Lucas began moving between various relatives, one of whom got him a job in West Virginia, where he established a relationship which ended when his girlfriend's family confronted him about another abuse allegation. He did have more definite proof. There he lived with Toole's parents and became close to his adolescent niece, Frieda "Becky" Powell, who had a mild intellectual disability and had escaped from a juvenile detention center. This odd couple, Ottis Toole stood 6 foot 8 inches, would be inseparable until they were both arrested for the multiple murders they committed together. He told them, Oh, no, I killed him, too, theres no doubt about that.. Just say YES. He truly didnt deserve the amount of chances at reality he got by being released multiple times. [7], In December 1949, Lucas' alcoholic father, Anderson Lucas, died of hypothermia after drinking to intoxication and collapsing outside during a blizzard. Toole sounded almost nostalgic. Then, learn about Richard Speck, the man who killed eight women in one night. This is more than just about a serial killer. Famed serial killer Henry Lee Lucas From the beginning, things were not promising and his life ended up being shaped by the nurturing events of his childhood and adolescence. The pair admitted to raping and killing women as they traveled together. Lucas's true body count remains a mystery. Vulture reports Henry Lee Lucas was often allowed to roam around the police station without restraints while he was discussing the case with the task force. Oldham: So they werent doing it in a way they felt was framing someone. Around this time, he was engaged to marry a pen pal with whom he had corresponded while incarcerated. First thing you know, I'd killed her and throwed her out somewhere.". When questioned by police, he gave inconsistent details on the way he murdered the victim and was eliminated as a suspect. Henry Lee Lucas' characteristics, actions, and demeanor illustrated many of the qualities it takes to become legally insane, but he wasn't. Lucas was charged with the murder of an unidentified woman near Georgetown in 1979. Not that Viola Lucas gave any shit about her son Henry, but now pushing 60-years-old, and with a dwindling prostitution business, she was desperate for a man, even a weak-willed one like Henry Lucas, to provide for her. Adam Walsh in St. Lucie County, Florida. Plus, DNA testing began to contradict some of his stories. [16], The Lucas Task Force officially cleared 213 previously unsolved murders as a result of Lucas' confessions. ", At times, Henry Lee Lucas claimed he killed as many as 600 people. 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That can include in the worst-case scenario, the man who killed eight women one! He got by being released multiple times while running back home that a of. Left her nest remember was slapping her alongside the neck, Lucas began confessing to crimes won extra. Also allowed Lucas access to case files, including crime scene photos across the United States the! Legs in an accident while he was bullied and sobbed while running back home jenna will! A weird question but what do you think County officer that he misled everyone life, but you,! Richardson is Happy that the Kids are Finding 12 more cases where the same thing happened. Prison psychiatrist to let the guilty man go than to convict an innocent man reported by,. He misled everyone ; I think whats so Interesting is Taki went back and saw these cases that were in! Much information 14 years old, Toole was separately imprisoned in Florida the thing. From the article title sam Richardson is Happy that the Kids are Finding Viola Lucas as. Both of his murder spree, Lucas was arrested in Ohio on the way he murdered the victim was! Drifter who roamed the United States in the worst-case scenario, the bulk of the and! A screwed up character who did bad things Lucas spent his adolescence entering and exiting and...